Starter Girlz Podcast

The #1 Trait That Separates Great Leaders from Good Ones (with Lee Povey, High-Performance Coach & Leadership Expert)

• Jennifer Loehding • Season 7 • Episode 101

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How do you unlock the leadership potential within yourself? In this episode of the Starter Girlz Podcast, Lee Povey, a high-performance leadership coach with a rich background in elite cycling and Olympic coaching, shares his insights on the #1 trait that separates great leaders from good ones and how curiosity, feedback, and emotional intelligence transform leadership.

From the velodrome to the boardroom, Lee opens up about his journey navigating high-performance environments, handling complex team dynamics, and the lessons he’s learned about leading with empathy, connection, and clarity. This episode is packed with actionable strategies to help you grow as a leader, build stronger teams, and handle conflict with confidence.

What You’ll Learn:
✅ Why curiosity in leadership matters more than talent
✅ How to handle conflict with emotional intelligence
✅ Practical rituals to build high-performing teams
✅ The feedback framework great leaders use (and most ignore)
✅ How letting go of perfectionism creates stronger teams
✅ The difference between good and great leaders

🙌 This episode isn’t just about leadership theory; it’s about real-world strategies that make a tangible impact. Whether you’re a founder, entrepreneur, or executive, Lee’s insights will help you lead with confidence, empathy, and clarity.

Connect with Lee Povey:
🌐 Website: https://leepovey.com

Connect with Starter Girlz Podcast:
🌐 Website: https://startergirlz.com/

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/startergirlz/

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Subscribe to the Starter Girlz Podcast for more empowering conversations that will help you grow in business and life. Don’t forget to rate and review—your support helps us share more stories that inspire change.

Lee:

And I think one of my gifts is being able to see these complex things and making them as simple as possible so that more people can use these tools. I get very frustrated when I hear very smart people come onto podcasts and explain things in such complicated ways because they want to look smart, but the tool is useless because it's too complicated. It's like, how do we make this as simple as possible so the most amount of people can use it? And smart people can use simple tools, right? You don't have to use complex tools because you're smart.

Jennifer:

Welcome to the Starter Girlz Podcast, your ultimate source of inspiration and empowerment. We're here to help women succeed in every area of their lives: career, money, relationships, and health and well-being. While celebrating the remarkable journeys of individuals from all walks of life who've achieved amazing things. Whether you're looking to supercharge your career, build financial independence, nurture meaningful relationships, or enhance your overall well-being, the Starter Girlz Podcast is here to guide you. Join us as we explore the journeys of those who dare to dream big and achieve greatness. I'm your host, Jennifer Loehding, and welcome to this episode. Welcome to another episode of the Starter Girlz Podcast. I am your host, Jennifer Loehding, and wherever you are tuning in today, we are so glad to have you. Here we are, another episode of Starter Girlz Podcast, another fabulous guest, and I am so excited to get him on here. Let's open this thing up. I had to get my notes, Lee, because I'm like, where are my notes at as I'm talking here? All right, so today's episode, we're gonna be diving into the world of peak performance, the kind where even the smallest details can determine the outcome. It's about testing limits, pushing boundaries, and uncovering the self-awareness needed to excel in high pressure environments. And so I am so excited about my guest today. It's gonna be so much fun. But before we bring him on here, we do need to do a quick shout out to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Walt Mills Productions. Need to add excitement to your YouTube videos or some expert hands for editing? Look no further. Walt Mills is the solution you've been searching for. Walt is not only your go-to guy for spicing up content, he's the force behind a thriving film production company with numerous titles in the pipeline. Always on the lookout for raw talent, Walt is eager to collaborate on film and internet productions. With a background deeply rooted in entertainment and promotion, Walt Mills leverages years of skills to give you the spotlight you deserve. Want to learn more about Walt and his work? Head on over to Walt Mills Productions.net and let your content shine. All right. And with that, I do want to make a mention to head on over to startergirlz.com. And I say this every single week. Why do I say that? One, because if you have missed an episode, it's a great place to catch up. They're all out there. Two, you can stay in the nose, sign up for our community newsletter, and you'll be knowing, I guess, when all the episodes come out and what we have going on. And then also, if you are an entrepreneur, creator, maybe aspiring, and you want to find out what your number one subconscious block is that you may be impacting your success. I've created a fun two-minute quiz over there that you can take to find out. And I was joking about this on the last episode, right in the midst of building that I realized that perfectionism was one of my big ones. And so um, yeah, forced me to have to get over that quickly. And so, uh, anyways, head on over to startergirlz.com and do your thing. All right, and with that, I'm ready to bring the guest on today. So my guest, Lee Povey, has spent more than two decades working with Olympic level performers and competing at the highest levels himself. Now he brings the same discipline of radical honesty to leaders who want to elevate their performance, cut through friction, and unlock their full potential. So, Lee, welcome to Starter Girls Show. I am so excited to have you here today.

Lee:

Hey Jennifer, excited to be here myself. And now I want to take your test. What is the mental block that's holding me back?

Jennifer:

Hey, it's fun. You want to let me tell you something about that stupid thing because you know, when I first started building that, I was working with one of the many mentors. We've all had mentors, right? Coaches have coaches. So I had this mentor, and she was helping me engineer this master beast program that I built that I didn't know what to do with it. Like I built it and I was like, what the hell do I do with this thing? So she's helping me engineer this kind of backwards, right? From the beginning. And so I go in to build this quiz, and I'm like, in I think I was using type form, and I'm like, I'm trying to figure out the freaking logic on this thing, Lee. And I spent a month doing this, and I finally was like, this is dumb. Like, Jennifer, this is just stupid. So I finally hired somebody to help me get it, and I get him in there, and he's like, You're using the wrong form. Like, we need to move you over to a different form. And I'm like, ah, just fix it, just fix the stupid thing. So we did. He did a great job, got it all put together. But talk about being stubborn because like I didn't want to let it go. And I was like, I don't like this, I can't get this right. My perfectionist thing was like on the overdrive. So I will tell you the big learning thing I got, and that was to relinquish it and let somebody else take it off my plate, you know.

Lee:

I think we've all had to have that learning lesson, Jennifer. And it's one of the biggest lessons that my clients typically have to deal with. So the people that are usually want to work with me are what you would call the smartest person in the room. So they're brilliant, often kind of a little bit younger in their career progression, and they're so smart they've just decided they're going to do it for themselves and not do it for somebody else. And they've missed out on that kind of learning that you get from a corporate environment on leadership. Who am I as a leader? What is leadership? And they haven't figured it out in the moment, just like you're saying. And they are often perfectionists and they want things to be done to a ridiculously high standard, and people around them may struggle to do that, and they really then struggle to let go of being in charge of everything.

Jennifer:

Yeah, I you know, in all the years I was in Mary Kay, you know, we used to talk about delegate, delegate, delegate. And, you know, and I would say that even to my teams. I would, you know, tell my teams that it would be something as simple as, you know, getting enough money together to help have somebody help you in your home, you know, whether it be like you're cleaning or help you with your children, whatever that was, because you're trying to run this business. And it's so funny, it's kind of like, you know, the accountant being the accountant, then they can't do their own checkbook or something, you know. Like so sometimes I have to tell myself, Jennifer, you know, you're talking about that that you know, control and delegation, letting go and letting go of that perfectionism. Don't be boggled down by those things, you know. And so I've really um have started to, you know, when I get in those places, just pause and go, okay, how effective is this? Am I just stupidly going through this because my stubbornness wants to figure this out, you know, or can we just let this go? You know, and that quiz was one of them. Just took me a minute, you know. So we all learn, I guess, right?

Lee:

Hopefully.

Jennifer:

That's good. Yes, hopefully, right?

Lee:

Everybody learns. Some people keep doing the same thing over and over and over again.

Jennifer:

I might be one of those. It has to, you know. I don't know. That's I don't know if you're a stubborn one, but some of us stubborn people have to hit our heads a few times or stub our toes, and then we're like, okay, enough is enough. You're done.

Lee:

I used to be, and then there was a shift for me uh when I was working in real estate. So I was working for a corporate company, this was my first real adult job. And I realized that kind of being defensive didn't get you anywhere. Right. And saying, Yeah, I've messed that up. How can I do better? Whether it be to my boss, whether it be to a client, there was this mental shift of, oh, I don't have to be perfect, I don't have to get it right every time. And actually, people like me more for that. So although I have a very strong internal drive to do things very well, I'm also now pretty good at saying, yep, I got that wrong. How can I redo it? Or yeah, you're right, I forgot to call you. How can I make it up now? What can I do to make it right? And it's it's a breath of fresh air, really, with how kind people actually are, if you're honest. Now, if you're defensive, most people really react to that. If you're honest, people react completely opposite like that.

Jennifer:

I was just gonna say that you're absolutely right. You talk about that, it just kind of diffuses the energy because when when you come up defensively, combatively towards somebody, they immediately are gonna respond in like nature, right? Like like kind. And so if you come at from a place of honesty and integrity and humbleness, I think, or maybe just humility, and say, Yeah, hey, I messed up or whatever, then they're much more willing to accept that and work with you than you know that the other. And I'm with you on that. Totally. And I think that's a I don't know what that, you know, when that occurs for people, because I'm like you, that I do tend to kind of go from that place of sometimes I just have to pause and be like, you know, hey, uh, is this worth is this worth it at this point any longer, you know, fighting for something or double downing on something and just go in.

Lee:

What do we even fight in Fort Jennifer? Typically it's fine for your own ego and that's it.

Jennifer:

Exactly, exactly. So, all right, Lee. Well, I want to talk about you. We've already had us a great conversation. Here we go. Talk about Lee though. I want to talk about you, your background, how you got to where you are with these we, you know, people that you're working with and these clients. What brought us to this place, you as an athlete? Tell us a little bit about your background.

Lee:

Yeah, let's go back to the family stuff. So um, I had a narcissistic sociopathic father, and that's not like the kids today, like, oh yeah, he's narcissistic. No, this this man would be clinically diagnosed as such. So um, almost no empathy whatsoever for other human beings. Everybody was a tool to be used by him. He would talk about me rather than to me. So he was, you know, he used to come into my place of work and say, My son was so good at racing last night, he was so powerful, you should watch him, my prodigy is so good. But wouldn't say that to me.

Jennifer:

Yeah.

Lee:

So at a fairly early age, I became pretty independent. I was like, okay, I don't want to be like him, and I don't like the way that he moves through the world. How do I want to move through the world? So I went on this kind of journey of self-discovery. From a fairly early age, I was having therapy in my early 20s, which is pretty unusual for a a bloke in the UK to be able to do that. Um, and then through that process, I got introduced to men's groups, um, where I was introduced to healthy versions of men, you know, healthy, wise older men. I was the youngest guy in the group by some way. So I had this opportunity to be around people that had a lot of empathy, that were very different from my father that could show me what it's like to be a man and to be able to love as a man. So that's love other men and love women and have, you know, great friendships. At the same time, I've always been incredibly driven. I was good at sport. My sport of choice by then was track strength cycling. I was good enough to get onto the national team, but I could see there wasn't the support I needed. I didn't have the financial background to support myself. So I realized I wasn't going to get to the Olympics, it wasn't going to become a career. So at that point, I switched to a corporate job in real estate, worked for a large firm for six years. Uh, as my clients do, I was like, sod this, I want to do this for myself. Or am I making money for someone else when I could make it for me and not have to be told how to do something by somebody who's not as smart as me? So I left a corporate company and I started my own real estate business. I did that for six years. Um, at the same time, I started to move into cycling coaching for fun and got back into competing myself. And um I won a British championship, and at that point I was very torn between do I want to still stay in real estate, do I want to do something else? And I could see the property crash of 2008 coming. So I sold my business December 2007. I got incredibly lucky. One month later, it would have been completely worthless. So I was unbelievably fortunate there. And then that gave me a breather. I remember having coffee with a friend of mine. I'm like, right, I'm gonna get into property development, that's gonna be the way I'm gonna earn money, and I'm gonna do cycling coaching for fun on the side. And he said, Well, take some time. And he said, Look, the property market's crashing, there's no point buying anything now, so take some time. So I took six months off, trained very seriously, won another British championship, and people just kept coming up to me saying, Can you coach me? So instead of it being a fun thing, it actually became a profession. I turned it into the largest track cycling focused uh coaching company in the world at the time. That led to becoming a national team coach for USA cycling after I'd moved from Brighton, my hometown in the UK, to California, and then COVID came and everything got shut down. And I'm like, what do I want to do now? And I was having a hard time with the national team program, no resources compared to the other top nations, um, 20 years behind in their methodology of how athletes should train and how they were thinking of training, and it wasn't to my standard, so I thought maybe it's time for a change, and that's how I stumbled into leadership coaching. I was watching a TV program called Billions, there's a leadership coach in that called Wendy Rhodes, and I kind of was interested in that character, and I was listening to podcasts on leadership at the same time, just for my own development, and I listened to a leadership coach. I shared it with my wife, and she said, Yep, that's what you should do. So at the same time, we opened a private practice therapy business. My wife's a therapist and my own coaching business, and that was uh the end of 2020.

Jennifer:

Wow, wow. You guys are getting like the best of both worlds, too. You got the therapy and the coaching all in the one.

Lee:

All in a one home. You can imagine the conversations we have.

Jennifer:

You'd be like, go see my wife for therapy, come back, and I'll get you on the other end, on the other side.

Lee:

Pretty much.

Jennifer:

Well, and you know what? A lot of my clients, a lot of times that's what they're doing. They're going to a therapist and they're coming to me for the, you know, for the other part and stuff, which it's crazy because I feel like we sort of kind of they really sort of mesh a little bit together.

Lee:

They overlap a lot, yeah.

Jennifer:

Yeah, because I'll I'll my sister, it's funny, she was going to a therapist for a while, and she I would say something to her and she'd go, that's what my therapist therapist would say. I see your therapist is smart. But I would say teaser on it all the time. Cause she'd be like, I was telling them, I'm like, Yeah, go see your therapist, run by what I say, and then come back and tell me what they say. See if they say they say it sounds okay. And usually it's it's pretty close. So that's awesome. So well, good for you. I think that's you know, I think COVID forced a lot of us to kind of regroup because I know when I was coming out, I was sort of in transition around that time too. I was moving kind of I was moving out of a company, but I hadn't fully gotten out of that. And I was sort of kind of trying to launch some of my coaching stuff. And then we went from, you know, being around to all of a sudden we're confined in and I had to just basically regroup. But you know what's so weird? I started my podcast like in 2019, right before it had happened. And even when they shut down, you know, here in Dallas, like oddly enough, we I still drove into the studio for my podcast the entire time. And I only had all but one guest not show up for their recording because back then we were doing them in person. Every single person showed up. Now we weren't on top, you know, like on top. They were, you know, but I'm not kidding, it was only like one person didn't show up that whole time back because I think we were so itching to get out, you know, like, and that was like our only like we got a podcast, let's go. We got time, we're gonna get out of the house. One day we're going to do the podcast, you know.

Lee:

I can't believe it's like you know, looking back, it's what a weird time, and I can't believe we did that when you you know, I can remember walking around the block and then seeing people and like, are we allowed to walk past each other? Is that is that smart? Like, is that risky? Like right at the beginning when we didn't know how bad this thing was. Yeah, what a what a weird time humans have been through.

Jennifer:

I know, right? And so I think it taught it taught us a lot and forced us to both some good things came out of it, right? Like you would have maybe not been doing what you're doing now had you not had a little bit of it was a wonderful opportunity for me.

Lee:

And I I'm actually very thankful that it it happened for me and my wife because it gave us an opportunity to change what we were doing, and in such a way that we could do it from home. You know, before that, I likely would have had to be traveling a ton and she would have had to have a brick and mortar practice, and now everybody's used to doing stuff on Zoom. We were able to move to that, and we both work from home, and it's a wonderful lifestyle.

Jennifer:

I know. Well, and just case in point, these podcasts, right? Because when I first started, I was going into the studio, and now I have I can go in. I mean, there's studios here, I can go in and do that, but I'm like, Lee, it's so easy to hit a button. I've been on platforms now, you can just hit a button, you know, and jump on.

Lee:

So yeah, I've been on well over a hundred podcasts now, and I've done two in person.

Jennifer:

Yeah, yeah. I think most now, I mean, the the way they developed everything now. I mean, they're just almost, I mean, there's it's still, I mean, going in person, I think, still is great energy and a lot of fun. I love it. I released one this week that was in person, and it's just fun to have that. But I mean, you can still have these great conversations across the camera, you know, it's so easy to hit those buttons, I'm telling you. You know, so good for you. So um, I love all this. I would love to know, like, you know, with these, these, you know, because I I shared with you a little bit that um in our house, my husband was an endurance athlete, and I was also former marathon runner. Neither of us compete at that level. He was, it was funny the other night, he was sitting on the couch, and one of the there was a guy that I interviewed a while back that he's he's in his 30s now. We're in our early 50s, and he this particular guy reminds me a lot of my husband when he was starting out. It was this whole thing where he he told the story about he didn't want to get the dad bought, they were having young kids, and so he started running, and then he started realizing he's not a bad runner and he's getting PRs, and so then it turns into marathons. Well, that's how it all started. You know, my husband's a 5K, 10K, half marathon. Then it went up to these 100-mile races, right? So the other night, he's sitting on the couch, and I'm talking to him about Andrew, the guy that's young. I said, Yeah, you should meet him. He probably wants to learn from you because he's like a young runner, you know, he's probably gonna turn into a trail runner. My husband's like, yeah, maybe I should, maybe I should start running some trails again. And I'm like, oh good. We're gonna start this all over again. I mean, he was like in it, you know, and so I'm sure you as an athlete, you get that that just that every little detail, the the training, the the routine, the practice, everything that goes with that. But I would love to know from you, you know, some of these people that you're working with, what is it that you feel like sets these high-level um achievers apart? What makes them in your mind a little bit different?

Lee:

Yeah. When I think back to the best sports people I worked with, obviously there's a genetic component. You have to have a level of physical ability. So there's that high level of physical ability, number one. And then number two, curiosity. I found the best people were the most curious people, and they were asking the most intelligent questions, and they were thinking, right, how do I do this better? And they just they had that desire to look at everything, analyze everything, and think, how could we do this just a little bit better? And working with them was so much fun for me because it felt like you were a team looking at this project of what is the project of making you better, and that's exactly how it feels with the leaders that I work with now. They come to it with a lot of curiosity. You know, there might be a bit of defensiveness at the start of like, what is this and why do I need to do this? But once they figure out the value of having somebody that can reflect things to you and the value of somebody who has lived what you're living and can kind of share some of that experience, very quickly it just turns into curiosity, right? How do I do that better? How do I show up like this? How do I motivate my team? How do I communicate with this person to get the most out of them? So I would say the highest performers I work with, there's a high level of curiosity and a deep need to understand things. That's the people that I resonate best with. They really want to understand how to do this better, and they get a lot of personal satisfaction, not just from doing the thing, but understanding about it and doing it at a level that feels good for them.

Jennifer:

Yeah. And it's interesting that you say this because I I feel the same way with I mean, just people. I mean, I think it's a difference of walking in a room with somebody, and you've got somebody who comes in with ideas versus somebody that has no ideas. Or because to me, that the curiosity that all goes together, right? It's like you put two people in a room and you present them with the challenge, and one person is gonna go, okay, there's no way, we're done. That's over. And then you got the other person over there that's their brain is going, okay, what what else can we try? What else is there? How can I change this? How can I shift? And and so I think that those are different kinds of people, right? Like those are different kinds of people. And um it drives me crazy the other. Because I I tend to be the the other way when I go into a problem, I'm looking at, okay, if I absolutely don't have another idea or another way to try something or another way to ask to say how can we do something different, then I'm sad. I'm just in a bad place. Um it's just not good. You know, and I think there's only been, I will tell you, there's been one time in my life where I felt that, and that's when COVID hit. When it first hit, I panicked because we were being, we were to get back, not not to hone in on that, but just to tell you that was the one time where I felt what you're talking about that you don't want to work with somebody because I felt like we were stuck, like we were being confined and I couldn't see a way out, right? A light out, right? So um, but that's probably the only time I've ever felt because most I mean, most time I'm like, even with the problem, I'm gonna be like, okay, we just need to pause and we need to, we need to seek resources. We need to talk to somebody, we need to ask questions, we need to dig, we need to do more work. We don't have the answer yet. We haven't figured it out yet.

Lee:

I um luckily I have very many uh smart friends. So I rung one of my smart friends who's a professor of physiology at the University of Utah, and I said, How is this gonna play out? And he was like, This is what's gonna happen. It kind of talked me through how pro you know COVID would progress, how quickly it would progress, what would happen, like how we would kind of get to some kind of solution. And that made me feel, okay, I get this, I get how this is gonna play out. I just need some patience. You know, at that point I was still running the national cycling team, and I was like, what are we gonna be able to do? The velodrome was closed for 18 months where we trained at, so we just went and found an outdoor one and trained there instead, and just found ways to make it work. Yeah, and one of the big things that came out of that period for me was realizing how important connection is. Before that, I thought, um, I didn't really like people. And what I realized was actually I like people, there's just a limit to how much people in I can do. And in that role, I was doing too much people in. I was doing too much time with people, and I was always burnt out emotionally from just too much time with people. So then being able to be much more intentional, how I created that coming out of COVID, friendships, um, you know, the work I do now and getting it to this level that is manageable for me, that's made a huge difference to me. Like my enjoyment of life has gone up massively because now I really enjoy every engagement, be that friendship, be that work, be that with my wife, rather than feeling like I was burnt out the whole time. So I learned a ton during that process about me still. And this was you know, I was in my late 40s at this time, and I still learn a ton about myself.

Jennifer:

Yeah, well, and to your point on the people and thing, I mean, I can certainly resonate with that on some level because I I have to even I think in the what we do, we're we're dealing with people a lot, right? And I don't know about you, but I always joke. It's like there's so much networking here where I live. I mean, there's probably something every single day of the week. And there was a period of time there for a while, probably more so pre-COVID, where I was networking like almost every day. And then I would get just by the end of the week, I would, and when I say network, you're talking a couple hours. This isn't like an all-day thing, a couple hours, but do that every day, right? And then I would have to spend the next week like just don't call me, don't I would almost get depressed, and so I had to really scale that back a little bit and realize that yeah, I love people and I love being around them. And I you can tell them obviously I'm gregarious, I can have conversation, but I also am okay with my quiet time too. And when I'm done, I'm done. So if I don't want to answer the phone and talk, I just won't. I'm not gonna take the call. I'm not gonna do it because I need my downtime. I call it like I just need my my detox. That's what I say. I just need probably like some junky TV for a few minutes. I don't watch TV that much, so don't even I don't even want to say that. I put TV on the other night to watch a movie for the first time in like three weeks, and I didn't even finish the movie. I put that uh, I forgot it was a Woody Harrelson movie about the guy, the diver, the diving team.

Lee:

Yeah, well, then watch that one.

Jennifer:

Yeah, I started to watch it's actually good, but I didn't finish it. It's good. I started to watch it, but I I dozed off and then I didn't even make it. So I'm not good. But what I normally do is I'll say, I'm gonna sit down and put something on, and I'm gonna just put something dumb on. And that wasn't dumb, obviously, but put something dumb on, and then I just don't even do it. It never happens, you know. But I'm with you on the peopling thing. So and I and I think that you're right. We learned during that COVID that you know that the connection is important. I mean, I think it is, period, but I think that was a big time we really learned because we didn't we couldn't have it so easily.

Lee:

We we didn't have it accessible to us, and it made us and we've got a problem now, you know, um especially for men where men are not good at staying in connection with each other. So you see in suicide rates for middle-aged men skyrocket because typically their first marriage has ended. Uh kids are off at college and they're lonely, and men don't do well when they're lonely, and they get a lot of that from their romantic relationship. So if they're not in a romantic relationship, a lot of men don't know how to have friendships. This is why, or one of the reasons why I run men's groups, is to help men have that level of connection. Yeah, and yeah, I mean, I've learned a ton about this myself. Uh, I don't do networking events, I hate them, I really hate small talk. I hate introducing myself when I come on these podcasts like this, Jennifer, and people kind of you know share my accolades, and I'm like, oh God, please don't do that. Oh, it's horrible. So I don't do that kind of stuff. I'll network with somebody if a friend introduces me and says this is somebody you should know 100%, but then we're gonna do an hour one-to-one where I'm gonna get to know you and see if you're somebody that I want in my life. But a network event where I was meeting 20 or 30 people at a time, and you're going around and you're two minutes saying hello, that is torture for me.

Jennifer:

Torture. Well, I will tell you, I'm not very good at that either, so I don't do any of that part of it. I'm actually running. It's funny, I we just started a group here, and it's so weird because we're kind of disrupting the way networking goes. It's more of a what we're doing is more of um like nobody stands up and does elevator pitches, nobody passes out business cards. It's it's more of like a workshop. I I do icebreakers where they actually have to talk. Like it's it's more like a one-on-one, like a one-on-one. It's not everybody have I do things where they actually get to know people because I hate those surface level conversations too. I'm not good at this. I mean, I'm okay with a hey, how you doing? But I always tell people if you hang around me for any period of time and you're looking for stupid talk, you probably want to get lost. It's not gonna happen. You're gonna think when you get done with me, and you're probably gonna be tired. You're gonna be worn out because I'm gonna make you think. And if you tell me something stupid, I'm gonna challenge you on it because I'm gonna tell you you're not thinking. So I I warn people, and they know, they know, but I'm with you. I have to do if I'm gonna do that, like I don't do very much of it. Occasionally I will. Um, but that's why I started leading one because it was more like I would go into these and I'm like, I I like meeting people, but I didn't like all the stupidery of the networking game where people would go in and start tossing business cards at me. I'm like, I don't even know who you are. And if you we didn't have a conversation, your card's going in the trash when I get home. Like, I'm just you know, or then the people they'd start, they they do this sometimes, they'll go through these lists and then they start, they'll send me an email and be like, hey, it was so good to meet you. And I'm like, who the hell are you? I don't even know who you are. Where did we meet?

Lee:

Like, did I get you have a very bad memory for for names? Wonderful one for faces. If I've met you in person or I've seen you on the screen, I'll remember you. It's a terrible one for names. So yeah, people reach out to me all the time and say, Hey, Lee, how are you doing? Well, I have no idea who you are.

Jennifer:

Yeah. Well, I have my picture on my card, so if I give it out, most people remember because of my picture. They're like, I remember that one. She was a chatty one.

Lee:

I did that back in my real estate days. We were the first real estate company in uh Brighton, my hometown, to put our pictures on our cards, and all the other real estate agents took the piss out of us and were like, Oh, why are you doing that? That's really lame. The customers loved it because they knew who was going to turn up.

Jennifer:

Yeah.

Lee:

Well, one, they remember you, and two, they felt safer because they knew who was going to turn up to their house because we sent them a card saying this is the person that will come and do the evaluation for you, so they knew already who was going to turn up on what you look like.

Jennifer:

Right. No, I agree with you, Lee, but I'm with you on the whole networking thing. I have to work myself in. I don't do it very often. I sometimes show up every now and then just uh but I like so we started a group now, and I'm actually loving it because we're we're it's I feel like it's we're more purposeful about what we're doing. We're really about creating connections and now I mean, yeah, we do icebreakers to get. them talking but they're actually fun we did last week we did a mad I don't know if you remember mad libs where you would have to ask them okay so we did a we did a that we had them partner up and we did a mad libs on their talking about what they do like who their client is how they're helping their client what their methodology because a lot of them get stuck on you know be like I'm an insurance agent okay well who cares you're an insurance agent there's lots of you out there what makes you different than every other insurance agent right and so we had them do that what was so funny Lee is watching them we're walking around the room and they're laughing like they're having these conversations over these stupid mad lib things and just watching the energy in the room which is what I was trying to create more of this relational type engagement versus just oh here's what I do call me because you know that isn't gonna happen right yeah Esther Peril has a really good game um I'm trying to think the name of it now where do we begin or something like that it's called and it's all of these questions that you have to answer about yourself and kind of present a story to the group so it's a storytelling thing.

Lee:

It's brilliant me and my wife use it when we have dinner parties and people love it. It's so much fun.

Jennifer:

Yeah I think people like things where they get to you know and my whole thing is I want to make it fun. I want to make it a place where it's a growth it's more growth minded but we're it's it there's just the fun in it too. It's not so hard.

Lee:

I want I want to hear your story. I don't want to hear what you want to do.

Jennifer:

I want to hear about you as a human being exactly exactly so I get it that's why I'm saying I get it when you say all that about the this the small talk and stuff and so all my stuff I do I I just try to I'm a kind of a disruptor I don't go along with the flow very well. So I'm like we don't like networking we're gonna start our own we're gonna create our own group and we're gonna hand select the people we want in our group it is a membership type thing just because of the organization we're affiliated with but I love it because we're actually getting to go in and kind of sort of craft sort of like you're picking your your coins that you want we're crafting the people that we want the leaders that we want to be in our group so that we have high level people in there that want to participate and come to the table with ideas and curiosity and not just oh we're gonna do this again or oh you know I don't want this leave the room yeah yeah anyway so so yeah so fun stuff. Um I had a question for you and then I forgot what I was going to ask you. So what uh when you're working with your clients we talked about kind of things that set them apart the curiosity and stuff so what does it look like when they're working with you mentioned like this one hour or how is a half hour you said where they sit down and have this one-on-one with you to work to kind of get to know them and find out this is somebody that you want to work with and so your initial stages are usually have like uh it depends on the on the on the type of contract so most of my contracts I am coaching multiple people in the same organization.

Lee:

Gotcha okay okay so I will typically have an interview for me with two or three people in the organization typically starts with somebody in kind of HR or people resources then I'll probably speak to the founder strike CEO and then maybe one other person there. And what I do is I help leaders be better versions of themselves as themselves but then also in relationship with other people. So I typically do one-to-one coaching and then group coaching. Okay and the group coaching especially is unbelievably powerful to be able to get a group of leaders together that may be misaligned and then let them kind of iron all of that out with the safety net of me being there and I just make them feel safe. You know my job is to make them feel safe. Yeah allow them to be able to speak to each other. I'll decode if I think they're not be able to hear each other like what I'm hearing Bob say is this is how does this sound to you Frank and kind of decode everything for them interpret it so that I can understand what's going on and they can understand each other. And I find those sessions super useful. Everybody leaves those feeling closer together more empathy for each other more human and then much easier for them to work kind of closely and understand that they're there to have the same aim. They're not you know they're not in competition they're not fighting with each other they have the same aim which is whatever that business aim is.

Jennifer:

Do you have a particular um a mentor or a philosophy I guess that I I know like for me I might back it up and then we'll come back to this I know like like when I start working with a client like I have several like they'll ask me like books or whatever. Like I've read a lot of books I'm sure you have too but I have like core books that I tell people to read all the time. Like one of them is Five Dysfunctions of a team by Patrick Leancioni. I love that one I love The Getting Naked I have one by I have several by John Maxwell that I like so I have these you know I have a book I love the books been selling because it's great for talking about how to close deals and stuff. And so I have these and what when I sort of kind of put my practice you know my my methodology together I went through like all the years of my Mary Kay and then all the things I train and not that these are rocket science but I sort of developed kind of my own little formula that I said this is what I did to help me get through those hard things that I had to get through help me get through my marathon right you know like probably like you did right so are there any particular like mentors that you um attribute your work that you I'm sure there are, but any in that stand out in your mind that you attribute your work to?

Lee:

God, so many.

Jennifer:

That's why I said I know there are I know you're probably like me there's just so many.

Lee:

I I like having a very deep toolkit. So I I I I this is how I view leadership. So I view leadership is it's our job to adapt ourselves to meet the people that we're leading where they're at. So if somebody says to me right I have a leadership style I immediately think we then you're going to be stunted in the people that you can work with. Because it's the only people that can respond to that style. So I want to have the kind of the widest breadth of ability to connect with humans to understand other human beings as possible. So the model that I use is let's establish who you are first like who are you are your genetic core what kind of qualities do you bring to the world and then what did you learn through your family system that now as an adult is getting in the way of you being your purest version of yourself. So that's kind of how I look at the coaching. Yeah and then we go to where are you now and where would you like to get to and the coaching is the gap in between so between where you are now and where you want to get to what will need to change what you need to learn what will need to happen what you need to let go of to get to where you want to go to so that's my coaching model. And then when we talk about mentors um I really like the work of Adam Grant organizational psychologist I think he's super smart. Obviously Brene Brown's work I really admire um there's a group called the Conscious Leadership Group they have a book called the 15 commitments of conscious leadership that's a book I often give to leaders but it'll also share things like Man's Search for Meaning by Victor Frankel.

Jennifer:

So kind of that one yeah yeah have read that one.

Lee:

Yeah so we can have that deep understanding of how human beings show up there's a book called Feel the fear and do it anyway which a friend gave to me when I was young and I got that to by Susan Jeffers and I thought that was a really good book to keep you to start understanding what you can control, what you can't control. Yeah I I read a lot of psychology books, a lot of therapy books. There's a book Adult Children of Emotionally mature parents which I give to a lot of my clients so that they understand where the kind of the baggage that's getting in the way. So if you're listening to this and you do something and you go why do I do that thing that I don't like it? Why do I show up like that I don't like it that's the work that I really like doing is helping you establish that part of yourself so that you can start to let go of it. And it's not a case of it is wrong because that shield we took on as a child helped us get through our environment our childhood our schooling system wherever we grew up and then there's an adult is getting in the way but it was a protector to us as a child. So if you know anything about internal family systems which is a therapy model, you know these things they call them protectors because it helps you get through your childhood. But as an adult they get in the way so I like to establish those we give it a name you know one of mine is tyrannical Einstein so my way to deal with my father was just to be smart and control everything. But be a tyrant about making sure everything is completely controlled so that I could be safe. As an adult that doesn't work as well people don't adult people don't like being controlled. So it's how I let go of that need for control and trust that I will be safe and okay without it.

Jennifer:

Yeah no it's good. It's good that yes I do study a lot of that one of the the mentors that I worked with he was from um Scotland his mother was a psychologist and one of I learned so many things I worked with him for two years solid. I mean he was he was a pretty penny very costly but he was good and it it it gave me a lot um he's the one that helped me build that big program out that I told you that I built and I didn't know what to do with it. And but aside from that I learned a lot of just um I don't know really good skills extra in the probably more so on the psychology side of things but one of the studies in there and I taught I I built some of this out in my um my bigger program was the the five adult stages of development. You've heard about like children stages of adult development but I didn't really realize there was actually work where they had gone and they studied this these five stages of adult development crazy thing is once you earn these kinds of things it's hard to unlearn them. Like once you like get them then you so now what's good about that is you can you know I can go around and I can watch people and I can be like okay they're in stage imperial stage right now they're being self-centered right now you know but one of the things he said that was remarkable in this is he was talking about like our health like how we operate because we as higher level thinking may be at this level but because we're dealing with so many people in the day we're bouncing up and down in these dialogues right which is what you're talking about allowing leaders to adapt to their people because you've got people in all spectrums of that five stages. And so even though you may be here you might be talking to somebody down here in an imperial mindset which means they're a little bit self-centered and you're trying to navigate as a leader how to deal with that. And if you're returning like behavior to the imperial mind, oh good Lord you've got a mess going on like you're gonna have like a lot of crap going on and that's where the good leadership comes in because you've got to be able to weather through that and be able to stay grounded and level headed and and try to meet them in a place where you can help them win right not be combative. And so what you're saying is so so right. But that was a big thing for me a big shift was when I learned went through and learned that and was able it it gave me a little bit of um I guess also some freedom to understand why I get frustrated sometimes because sometimes people do things and I just I don't understand why they do them I'll be like why do you behave like that? Like it just frustrates me. Why because I'm such a a big thinker like I think up here on a higher level I don't want to say on a on maybe smart I'm just saying I think abstractly so I look at a situation if I see two people doing something and to me the the solution's easy to me is shut up stop talking just pause. Both of you stop talking right now don't say because the next thing that comes out of your mouth is what might be a problem right and so for me I can look at a situation a lot of times and I can just go oh well to me it seems very easy what to do but for somebody in the midst of that they're looking at and they can't right and so um I I think that yeah it it it for me it gave me this kind of freedom to go okay Jennifer this is why this is this way because every you've got these people all operating on these different levels and you're and the reason you're getting frustrated is because you're having to deal with these situations that you don't understand and as the leader you're having to to pause and try to navigate those situations right and so it's taught me it's I mean it's not perfect obviously we're we're continuing to grow every day but it's taught me to have more patience and empathy and compassion and to just I think the biggest thing lead pause.

Lee:

Yeah just pause um you know I think there's a couple of models that spring to mind that I really like using. And before I do that I just want to acknowledge some of my mentors that I didn't acknowledge you know I was thinking as you were talking and I've had some great coaches Adam and Babe Quiney and uh I I did their program called the Forge for nine months which was life changing for me. I had a therapist James Clifton for 20 years on and off in the UK and I just got unbelievably lucky he was so good and when I came to America I tried a bunch of different therapists and none of them were as good as him and went back to him originally and then went into coaching and and started working with coaches. I had a personal coach Sarah Snyder that was super useful to me and also just to understand how I want to coach. So not just to be coached but also what qualities do I want to take from them that I admire that I want to put into my own coaching. And then I'm thinking about what you're saying about meeting people where they're at and I think there's a couple of models that really help. You know one is the difference between content and context. So I often find when people are in these discussions and arguments and as an outside observer you're looking in and thinking why are you arguing about this? It seems so petty and it's because they're arguing about the content instead of the context which is what is the human need that they have you know so an example for me might be we agreed to meet at six o'clock in the evening. So I turn up at six and you turn up at 615 and I'm annoyed with you. Why are you late? And you're like well it's only 15 minutes it's not a big deal and it was busy and I couldn't park my car and why are you now getting annoyed with me? And we're arguing about the time but the time isn't what matters. What matters is my context there is I felt alone and I felt that you didn't care for me because you didn't get here on time and I'm embarrassed because I'm sitting by myself in a restaurant. Your context is maybe I'm really busy and I and I'm making an effort to be here with you and fit you into my busy schedule and I'm only 15 minutes late. Right. I help people share the context and what happens is when they share the context with each other we're able to have so much more empathy. Because when I say to you I felt lonely when you weren't here at at six o'clock you can go oh oh I get that oh I'm sorry. And when you share with me you know look I'm super busy and I really want to see you and and it's a struggle for me to fit this in I'm like oh I can wait 15 minutes for somebody who's super busy. I get it.

Jennifer:

Because I I like that I didn't hear the context versus the content because I I what you're talking about I agree with you and that's exactly what I do I've never heard it quite put that way so I like that you you you're putting that because it does I think people often the defensive reaction is to get hung up on the time thing but it's really the way they felt which is the context right but there that's the part they have to learn people have to learn to and and I like the way you're putting it because it's actually to me it's more it's coming it sounds a little more logical because you're giving it these names where right we're having now it's it's a thing it's a context versus a content versus now we're talking feelings for you know which is hard for a lot of people to to express right so I like you know that's good.

Lee:

When we think about it as little kids so if you watch a little boys and girls they both have the same range of emotional responses. You know this fallacy that women are more emotional than men not true and absolutely not true in my I don't as a men's uh group leadership coach right I you know I run men's groups I'm very passionate about it I have plenty of emotional men in my groups the difference is that men are typically taught out of understanding their emotions yeah so we say things to little boys like man up don't show your emotion be tough you know don't be a pussy and and anything that's kind of you know like a a a sexist slur or or a homophobic slur, that's the worst thing you can have as a man. Don't be weak, don't be like a woman don't be a pussy don't be gay all of these kind of slurs which are ridiculous on their face because women give birth something that men can't do which is the toughest thing that a human being does number one. So why are we even saying that but so we're telling men that this whole part of their being this emotional response that we all have it doesn't disappear we tell them to turn that off so then they don't understand their experiences in the world. So what I teach men and I teach all humans but particularly men is emotions are data. They just tell you about your experience in the world they're not good or bad like I hate when people talk about negative emotions. We might have a negative experience that goes with an emotion but sadness and fear and anger they're not negative they are telling us what we're experiencing. You know often when we're angry it's because somebody's pushing a boundary okay what do I what do I want to do about that what does that data tell me when I'm sad it's typically around loss what does that tell me does that tell me I want to create something else in my life if I'm feeling lost in this section of my life so I like to get people to think about emotion to data. I want them to be able to understand where they're at I give them six emotions to work with joy, fear, anger, sadness, interest and disgust so they can locate what's going on for themselves. Sadness can be melancholy to distraught you know joy can be ecstasy to mild contentment. It's a big spectrum and I listened to this Renee Brown podcast and she was like ah our team has established 83 emotions and I'm like no nobody can remember 83 emotions. What are you going to do with that? You give that to somebody it's just unbelievably complex. My wish in life is to make things so simple that people can reach into these tools use them really easily go oh what am I feeling right now? I'm feeling some joy oh a lot of joy a little bit of joy what does it tell me and what I find from that is then we have language we have language to share about our experience to others but also to ourselves to understand it. We can go what am I feeling okay what does that tell me joy right why am I feeling joy in this moment? Oh because I'm with people I really like right how do I create more of that right and people think of say happiness as a destination if only I do this I'll be happy not true. Daniel Canneman another person I really respect did a ton of work on this buy that new car and unless you are absolutely obsessed with cars it brings you joy for the first couple of drives then it's just another way of getting for A to B. Right and we do this a lot we buy things to bring joy or we go on vacations to bring joy or whatever it is and it's experiences that bring us more joy than things and it's connection with others that bring us the most joy so how are you creating these positive connections in your life and then when you have them how are you maintaining them my wife have a date night every week and we have a script that we go through in the date night three to five appreciations for each other then it's like tasks that we have to do so we have a task list who's doing which task who's taking it on have you done it yet check in a little bit about our finances um and then booking something for joy so any holidays we need to book or activities for us as individuals not necessarily as couples and then we get two grievances. What is it what's something that I'm doing that's annoying you or that we need to sort out we do that every week without fail and it's so powerful. It it it really keeps our relationship on track.

Jennifer:

Yeah I love it. Okay let me ask you a question because I know you're you're organize you guys are it sound like you're you you at least I know organized do y'all have this like on a on a sheet that y'all are writing this down when you come in or do you just have it memorized now?

Lee:

Uh I have the script on a sheet and you can go to my website and actually get it.

Jennifer:

I've got a resource section I got a resources section on my website.

Lee:

It's called the Couple's state of the union um let me just check with my VA that that section's gone live because she's just building it out but I think it has and if not sign up for my newsletter and I'll send it to you.

Jennifer:

I need to get it I'm gonna show my husband this I'm excited I'm gonna I'm like I knew you had a forum I'm like do you have you've got to have a forum for this I and I'm pretty good at remembering those things but we'll get it out and still work through it to check that we're doing it.

Lee:

And my wife keeps the uh my wife keeps the task list so she has a special uh diary just for our task list so she brings that with her each time that we have to date I love it I love it.

Jennifer:

Well because you're you're you know what I like about it is that you guys are making the time to sit down to have the important conversations because that is we're not going to get on we won't even we're not even that's a whole nother show we could do about couples, right? But my point to this is that's a lot of the problem is the the disconnect right not having the conversation so I love that you guys are you're actually taking the time to sit down and work through that and have that even if you don't follow everything you know exactly but you're getting to have going through those important conversations that need to happen.

Lee:

Yeah and you know I want to pause this here for a second and relate this back to leadership because it's exactly the same in work relationships. Typically I go into an organization the organizations I work with are typically kind of 20 to 100 people they're scale up companies they have a good product or service that's doing well the company's expanding rapidly and the leadership is struggling with that expansion right they need more tools. I come in and help them with that and one of the first things that we see is there's not enough feedback. I'll go in and I'll speak to people and they'll say oh I don't know how I'm doing I'm worried I might get fired and I'm like why? Because I don't get any feedback. So often we have to implement feedback quite quickly. And what I find is people don't give feedback because they're scared. They're worried they're going to offend somebody that they're going to do it clumsily. So I teach workshops on giving feedback because it's such an important skill that most people don't get taught. And you know I I think we should be more courageous with our feedback and try and then think okay I can tidy that up if I've made a mistake or if I offend you let me take that back. I didn't mean to say it that way. This is what I meant instead rather than not giving feedback. And I see this in all relationships work relationships, romantic relationships, we're scared of giving feedback so the feedback comes out sideways when we're annoyed instead of coming out clearly as a separate this is a feedback session. And the same in work your boss gets angry and shouts at you instead of hey I saw you do this thing. I think we could do this a better way let me let me share some tips with you. So that's why I do feedbacks on workshop because I think it's so so important.

Jennifer:

Yeah I love it. No and I agree with you because you're right I agree and it's it's in all areas if you if you're having those healthy conversations it doesn't mean it's perfect you're never going to have a moment where something goes you know as you put it in the in a bad place but you're gonna have less of that aggression and compativeness because you're having those dialogues that are healthy over here to I love it. And you're right it's in all areas it's not just in relation it's in your leadership at work it's all areas how you know if that mentor told me how you do one thing it's how you do all things Lee.

Lee:

Yeah and and you know coming back to the content versus context if you can catch yourself in that framework and going are we having a discussion about the content or are we having a discussion about the context? What's the context here? And if you can keep bringing yourself back to what's my need as a human, what's their need as a human again work relationships too not just personal relationships, you're going to get what you need. And one of the things I like to encourage people to do is share the impact. So when you do this this is the impact on me and this is how I feel it's quite hard to argue with somebody when they're saying this is how I feel about what you said rather than you are wrong and you shouldn't do that. It's you just share the impact and someone could go oh that's I'm not meaning to have that impact on you. Let me try that a different way rather than you say you're wrong and that person's gonna be like no I'm not wrong I'm right and now we're arguing about right and wrong instead of this is how I felt when you said that this is how I felt when you spoke to me like that in front of colleagues. I'd much rather that you did that one to one rather than you're a bully and you're wrong for saying that.

Jennifer:

Yeah no it's good. Well I wrote down on my little American Express piece of paper here. I got a whole stack of papers here I need to clean up my desk but I wrote down content versus context on the shall I send you a little diary for you to write these things into I I know right like well it's fun you know because we this is the beautiful thing about this show Lee is that you know a lot of the the principles and the things we're talking about are you are universal. There's a lot everything you're saying to me I agree with you on it because it's all stuff I talk about. But the beautiful thing about this is we all have our little spin on these things right the way we we present them and the way we talk about them is it's fun you know because I learn things through you know when you guys come on the show I learn things from your your dialogue and the things you're saying and so I have never I mean yes obviously I know content I know what context means and I talk about context a lot in studying people because I always say you know context context matters because if you watch people and you listen to what they say you can learn a lot just by paying attention without ever having to say watch them over a little while period of time listen to the things they say how they behave you'll start figuring them out. People are pretty I think people they're complex but I also think they're not I think you can figure people out pretty quickly. But this is good because I had never heard it put this way so I I love it. And um thank you for sharing that I think this la this whole episode was great but I think this last bit that we really got on about the leadership is so instrumental because a lot of people listening to this show are in places where they're trying to either you know they're they're leading in some capacity or trying to build a business or or maybe they're leading a team who knows but all good stuff lead.

Lee:

I think we all lead Jennifer yeah it doesn't matter whether you're you are you know leadership for me is being responsible for others. Well you can also be responsible for yourself you're you're leading in your own life so how you relate to yourself and how you relate to what you need as a human being is just as vital as leading a team of a hundred people and if we all took that maybe just a little bit more seriously that responsibility of leading ourselves and leading others I think we'd have a more curious and more empathetic world.

Jennifer:

I do I I agree with you on that too we sure as heck would have healthier dialogue right none of that surface level stuff.

Lee:

And then people would just be less afraid as well you know I I want to reaffirm this with people it's okay to make mistakes in a conversation it's okay to say something and then go, let me tidy that up that's not the way I wanted to say that. Let me say that again. And coming back to taking responsibility you know back in my real estate days where a client would ring me and say hey you you were going to ring me by five o'clock it's seven o'clock why haven't you rung me and I'm like I'm sorry you're right I got waylaid here now. How can I make that right for you? You can do exactly the same in any conversation you say something you regret it and you say you know what that was meaner than I meant it to be let me try again you'll be amazed at how impactful that is for people when we double down and say well I don't care that that hurt you or I meant that when we didn't and we know we didn't that does real damage to relationships. But when we stop and go you're right I could have said that better let me try again you're gonna be so much more impactful and you're gonna have a much higher quality of life we it's been good it's good stuff.

Jennifer:

I agree with you on all of it and I think what hopefully you know somebody listening to this will maybe you know walk away they learn something a little bit different and how to engage whether it be at work or you know co-workers family whomever they're ch choosing to talk to because I agree with you it can make such a difference in the dialogue but it starts with us right as the leader it starts with us being self-aware and deciding that go back to what you said in the beginning being curious having curiosity to be better and and work every day and that's why I I always tell people you know it's it's not it's not a perfect thing right because we all like you said we always we're gonna continue to make mistakes but I think the the humility or really the growth comes when we can step back and own that and say okay I didn't mean to say it like that or hey my bad you're calling me out I'm sorry I didn't mean to let me let me start over you know and I've done that I've been like let me just start over forget what I said five minutes I'm just gonna start over you know and I I think that takes a level of um I don't know what the word I'm looking for in that because I I I can't and maybe you were this way too I've been on both sides of that I've been on that other side where I didn't have the confidence to own my stuff and I felt very being attacked whereas now I don't I've I've been able to separate the deed from the person. In other words like if I screw up I don't think I'm a bad person. So if I make that mistake if I say something to you that sucks Lee and I just mess F that up whatever I'm just gonna say okay I just screwed that up I'm sorry but I'm not gonna take that as now I'm a bad person equate Jennifer's bad blah blah I just I've learned to separate those and so that's a wonderful skill Jennifer you know wonderful skill and we often do that you know again when when people are talking I encourage them to talk about the behavior not the person.

Lee:

So instead of you do this it's when you do that thing this is how I'm left feeling rather than you always do this because nobody really always does that the whole time all in this way. Nobody you know very few people if we if we take out the sociopaths and psychopaths which is five to ten percent of the population the other nine 90% of the population are genuinely trying to do the best they can with the toolkit that they have. They might just have a limited toolkit. And it's how do we help that? The reason I come on these podcasts is because I want people to have bigger toolkits so that they can get more from their lives and they can have better relationships with people. That's it. That's I've got enough clients. I come on these because I want to help people have better experiences in the world. And I think one of my gifts is being able to see these complex things and making them as simple as possible so that more people can use these tools. I get very frustrated when I hear very smart people come onto podcasts and explain things in such complicated ways because they want to look smart, but the tool is useless because it's too complicated. It's like, how do we make this as simple as possible so the most amount of people can use it? And smart people can use simple tools, right? You don't have to use complex tools because you're smart.

Jennifer:

It makes me well, and I'm we won't do much too much longer here because I know you got things to do. But John Maxwell, one of his latest books, he talks about that communication. You know, when you have speakers go on the stage and they'll say that one smart thing that one person clicks with, and the whole audience is like, and he's like, Do you want to connect with people or do you want to live smart? Like, which do you want to do? And and that is like I can't even tell you everything about that book, but I remember I don't know how he exactly said it, but I just remember that part of the book where he was talking about connecting with people. And like you just said, it happens every time you'll go in into a networking group, and there'll be the person that raises their hand to ask the question, and they ask the question to the speaker that nobody in the room even knows what the hell they just asked. They know, those two know, but nobody in the room gets it, nor do they care, you know. And so, you're to your point, yes, you know, you gotta make things that people understand. And that's why, even like when I'm, you know, when I'm trying to create like just to give you an example, like I have somebody that helps me with the YouTube on my videos, helps me do like the SEO and the titles, because I'll put things up and I'm like, oh, I like this because I like it, it sounds fun. But then I'm thinking, okay, but I gotta connect with my people. I need my people to connect with what the messaging is, because if we put some artistic message, which I might get, is everybody else gonna get that, you know? And so, yes, I think it's always about what you're talking about there is being able to connect with people and always need you don't need to be the smartest person all the time, you know.

Lee:

One of the things I've had to work hard on and let go of is as a as a kid who is both dyslexic and autistic, and an adult who is still both, because those things don't go away, right? Um, I have shame around the fact that I didn't go to university and uh at school I was called the brightest kid in the school and the laziest. Not because I was lazy, you don't have the achievements in life I've had by being lazy, right? But because I didn't know how to work in those circumstances, I didn't know how to learn in that situation because it didn't suit me. And instead of them seeing me as a kid that was struggling, they saw me as a kid that didn't care, which just wasn't true. So now I I I work hard to let go of my need to be smart, and instead I work on how do I be the most impactful I can be. And that is making complex things simple so that more people can use it. That's impact. You know, showing up as the smartest person in the room, that's just being the smartest person in the room, doesn't mean that you have great impact and doesn't mean that you get other people to follow you. There's a guy called Randall Stuntman, the leadership coach, and his kind of platform is based off this thing called admired leadership. And what he discovered through lots of research was the most admired leaders, so the most effectual leaders were those that made other people feel good about themselves, those that spotted other people doing things well and reinforced that as much as they gave them critique that made them feel like the best versions of themselves. And that is my journey. Instead of making people feel small, because I'm the smartest person in the room, I want to make other people feel good and smart and good about themselves. And it's been a journey, and I still struggle with it, but that's the journey that I'm on.

Jennifer:

I love it, Lee. And I think you're doing awesome stuff. So I want to commend you for that. And I also want to say thank you for jumping on here. I know we had a long conversation, probably sit here forever and talk about this stuff. I always love when I get my people you know in here that are in that space and can have these good, like, you know, deep, impactful conversations, because I think there's a lot of a lot of uh, I don't know, I say boring conversations out there. So I like these good conversations. So thank you for coming on here and sharing with us and um spilling, you know, some of your, I call them like what your little knowledge nuggets with my audience. And uh hopefully, you know, if somebody listening to this says, hey, I want to learn more about you, or maybe they want to get in touch with us, where do you want us to send them?

Lee:

Keep it on the simple thing, lepovey.com, leapovey on all social media. Uh you'll find me most active on Instagram and especially LinkedIn. I have a newsletter, got about 10,000 people that I send that to now. So please come and sign up for that. Um, I write a newsletter every week and with something useful and actionable about being a human being. So come sign up for the newsletter.

Jennifer:

Very good. We'll make sure to Lee when the when my guy does all the show notes, we said we'll make sure that we get the email. I used to do all that. Now I'm like, that was one of those things had to let go. I had to learn to let it go because I was getting tired of writing that. It's like this is the stuff I want to do, have the conversation. I didn't want to be writing the show notes in the in the deal.

Lee:

But I I have a virtual assistant who does all that for me, and my goal, my world has changed.

Jennifer:

Oh, I know, right? Especially when you're perfectionists, just let it go. Just let somebody take it over. It is a blessing because I I have cut down like half my time. Now I get to do the parts I enjoy, which are these conversations and stuff. So but he's good. We'll make sure we get the the website in there. That way, if anybody wants to reach out to you, they can. And so thank you again for the great conversation. It was fun. Enjoyed it.

Lee:

So you too. Thanks for finding me on Jennifer. Appreciate it.

Jennifer:

Absolutely. And of course, to our audience, we we appreciate you. Hope you found this episode both inspiring and informative. And if you did, you know what to do. Do all the things like, subscribe, share, comment, keep passing the information around so that we can share Lee's information and of course all this fabulous content that we put out. And as I always say, in order to live the extraordinary, you must start, and every start begins with a decision. You guys take care, be safe, be kind to one another, and we will see you next time.

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Jennifer Loehding

Host
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Lee Povey

Guest