Starter Girlz Podcast

Turning Bias Into Strength: One Woman’s Rise to Leadership | Women in Tech (with Kae Kronthaler Williams, CMO)

• Jennifer Loehding • Season 8 • Episode 115

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Some workplaces weren’t built with women in mind — but that doesn’t mean you can’t lead, be heard, and thrive.

In this episode of Starter Girlz, Jennifer Loehding sits down with Kae Kronthaler Williams, global software marketing executive and author of Not Made For You. Kae shares her journey from starting as a telemarketer to becoming a CMO, and what she has learned about leadership, navigating bias, and thriving in male-dominated environments.

This conversation explores the realities of workplace bias, the value of diverse teams, and leadership insights Kae has gained throughout her career. You’ll hear discussion-based insights on how curiosity, awareness, and collaboration shape inclusive, high-performing teams, and how women and marginalized voices can navigate systems that weren’t built for them.

⭐ What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • How bias shows up in everyday workplace interactions — and why noticing it matters
  • The role of leadership in creating inclusive, high-performing teams
  • Why diverse perspectives make teams stronger and decisions sharper
  • How women and marginalized voices can navigate systems that weren’t built for them
  • The importance of connection, awareness, and reflection in leadership
  • Supporting others and fostering collaboration as part of effective leadership
  • How curiosity and open-mindedness can shift workplace culture
  • Key insights from Kae’s career on staying resilient and continuing to grow

📌 Guest & Connect Info

About Kae Krunthaler Williams:
Kae Krunthaler Williams is a global software marketing executive, author, and advocate for inclusive leadership. Her book, Not Made For You, provides women and marginalized voices with practical guidance, insights, and strategies for navigating bias, claiming their space, and leading confidently in male-dominated systems.

Guest Website: https://www.kaewilliams.com/

Connect with Starter Girlz Podcast:

Want to be a guest on Starter Girlz?
Reach out to Jennifer Loehding on PodMatch: https://www.podmatch.com/hostdetailpreview/17044863446695017c1879d7b

Jennifer Loehding:

Welcome to the Starter Girlz Podcast, your ultimate source of inspiration and empowerment. We're here to help women succeed in every area of their lives. Career, money, relationships, and health and well-being. While celebrating the remarkable journeys of individuals from all walks of life who've achieved amazing things. Whether you're looking to supercharge your career, build financial independence, nurture meaningful relationships, or enhance your overall well-being, the Starter Girlz Podcast is here to guide you. Join us as we explore the journeys of those who dare to dream big and achieve greatness. I'm your host, Jennifer Loehding, and welcome to this episode. Welcome to another episode of the Starter Girlz Podcast. I am your host, Jennifer Loehding, and wherever you are tuning in today, we are so glad to have you. I am so excited about my guest today. This is gonna be so much fun. All right, we're gonna open up with this. She is a global corporate leader who has built a powerful career inside high-pressure environments while staying deeply committed to people, purpose, and progress. She's someone who doesn't just talk about leadership. She lives it, studies it, and challenges the systems that hold people back. So whether you are building a business, leading a team, or learning how to use your voice more boldly, this conversation, I have a feeling is going to be one you're gonna want to tune into today. But before I bring her on, I do want to do a quick shout out to our sponsor. This episode is brought to you by Walt Mills Productions. Need to add excitement to your YouTube videos or some expert hands for editing? Look no further. Walt Mills is the solution you've been searching for. Walt is not only your go-to guy for spicing up content, he's the force behind a thriving film production company with numerous titles in the pipeline. Always on the lookout for raw talent, Walt is eager to collaborate on film and internet productions. With a background deeply rooted in entertainment and promotion, Walt Mills leverages years of skills to give you the spotlight you deserve. Want to learn more about Walt and his work? Head on over to Walt Mills Productions.net and let your content shine. All right. And with that, I do want to make a mention to head on over to startergirlz.com. I tell you this every single episode. And why do I say that? For three reasons. One, because if you have missed an episode, it is a great place to catch up on all of those. It's also a great place to sign up for our community newsletter, and then you can stay in the know and hopefully never miss an episode that's going out. And then, of course, if you are an entrepreneur, maybe an aspiring creator, I don't know, wherever you are in this in this place, and you want to find out what your number one subs, excuse me, number one success block is that may be hindering your success. Well, guess what? I've got you covered. I've got a two-minute quiz over there that you can take that will tell you which of the one of six blocks that may be impacting your success right now. So head on over to startergirlz.com. And as I always say, do your thing. All right, let's get the guest on today. This is going to be fun. So my guest today, Kae Kronthaler Williams, is a global software marketing executive, author, speaker, and advocate for women's advancement in the workplace. She's passionate about confronting bias, challenging toxic work cultures, and helping create environments where people feel seen, supported, and empowered to lead. So I'm excited to chat with her today. Kay, welcome to Starter Girls. So excited to have you here.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Hi, Jennifer. Thank you. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Jennifer Loehding:

It's going to be so much fun. You are a powerful woman and doing some great things. And I know we got to chat like a few, I don't even know when it was, but I remember chatting with you a few weeks back. Yeah, it was a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. Yeah, about what you're doing. And I'm so excited to kind of dive into this today. And, you know, it's so fun when I do these conversations. And every once in a while, I love all my guests that come on here, but it's so fun when I get to kind of mix it up and shake it up and get somebody that's in a different place in the world. And so I'm just excited about this whole conversation.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Thank you.

Jennifer Loehding:

All right. So let's talk about you. I want to open this up. So your career has taken you deep into high-pressure corporate and tech environments, which I think is awesome. I know nothing about tech, so that's why I'm I'm just excited about this. Um, I would love to know what originally drew you into this world. What got you into this? And when did you realize you wanted to be a voice for change rather than just, you know, having success?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

So I started in my career in tech while I was in college. I was working um in a company and um they had a software division. And so it was a new division of the company. And I was already working there, and I actually took a demotion to get into the software division because my manager at the time said, I think this is, she knew I was almost graduating from college. She's like, I think this is a better career path for you. Um, I know it's a demotion, but eventually it will pan out. And so that's how I started in marketing for the software industry. Um, and you know, ever since I've been in large companies, but and then mostly startup companies or scale-up companies has been my career. Um, and you know, what made me start to advocate for change is I've worked in a number of companies and I recognize these patterns of bias that were hindering my growth potential within the organization and other women. And what I realized is that it wasn't just this one company, this one culture, because I worked in multiple companies and I was still seeing the same thing. And so I, you know, I started eventually figuring out how to maneuver around those barriers and bias to be successful because I have had a successful career. I started out as a telemarketer and now I'm a CMO. And so there are strategies that women and anybody, you know, in a marginalized group can employ to get around some of these barriers that have been created from this system that was really built for men by men. Um, and so that is how I started to, you know, want to talk about this a little bit more, um, get some of these strategies out to women so that they can have successful and joyful careers as well.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah. Well, and and they always say, you know, like we we I our pain is kind of our message, right? It's like the things that we have to work through, the hurdles, the challenges that we have to go through sort of become our talking points. And when we, you know, I there's so much to this because I think there's this idea that yes, you're in an industry that is heavily male dominated. And it's I that's why I think it's so fun when I find women in the tech space, because that's, I mean, you don't get it a lot, right? Like you get a lot of men in that space. And so when I see, I've had a few even on this show, and I'm always impressed by just the tenacity and the grit and and persistence in doing that because it's it's I I can imagine it's it, you know, it maybe now we got it down, but probably hasn't always been easy, you know. And so um I think it's awesome. But I do think, yes, learning to navigate is important, and that's apparently you've had to do that, and so um you're in a place now where you can share those that message with other people that are, you know, in that in that and maybe navigating those challenges. Right. Yes, I love it.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Um and yeah, and they're you know, they're it has been challenging. I think a lot of women we just kind of took it for granted that it was difficult. Um, and so and and some people get dismayed by that, right? So some women want to leave the industry and and I love our I love the tech industry, I love marketing, and I want us to be successful as an industry. And I do believe diverse teams help companies be successful. So, you know, that's the other reason that I'm just trying to help women navigate these rooms and these organizations.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah. So a while back, I had on the show, just to kind of not to digress, but just kind of add power to what we're talking about here, Zen Business. You're probably familiar with Zen Business. They do help with like the legal, a lot of the legal work on businesses. But I had one of the um, I want to say she was like one of the co-founders on uh Shinaz Hamathi is her name. You can look her up. Um, and she was, she's kind of an advocate for women in the the tech, kind of in that space too. Had such a fun time chatting with her, but you know, looking at some of your stuff, it kind of see, I can see some parallels in there. And it's so funny when I do these shows, there'll always be that conversation I'll have with somebody, and I'll be like, it reminds me of somebody else that was on the store, some of the work that they're doing in in that space. But one of the things she said was kind of what you were just talking about is having these divers, the diversity, bringing in different, you know, having different people in the group. And her big thing was about this whole idea that yes, when you bring diversity in, you're getting different opinions and different conversations. And it's not all, I mean, if you worked with all the same people all the time, there you you'd be in an echo chamber, right? Like you'd just be sort of talking to yourself all the time. And when you start having other voices come in, then you can have other ideas come in and input, and um I think it just makes for better teams.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Yeah, and I think there's research that that shows that companies do better um financially and they also make better, faster decisions when they have diverse teams. And when you really think about it, it makes sense because if you have this homogeneous group of people in a meeting or in a company and they bring up an idea, everyone just nods their head. And this doesn't happen. Yeah, like, oh yeah, we agree. Where if you have people from diverse backgrounds, yeah, you know, um they come to the problem from a different angle and they offer different suggestions. So then you're you're you have a array of options for the best outcome, right? Yeah, um, versus everyone thinking the same way. And so that's why I just think it's it just makes sense to have a diverse group of people and companies, you know, you're you're building products for probably a diverse group of customers. And so you want people who understand your customers to build your products, to sell your products, and to market your products, right?

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and let's talk about that leadership because that's that right there, I think, is huge. And, you know, even I work with leaders too in a different capacity, but I find that so many times that we do, we get stuck in thinking that everybody has to agree and it has to be this way. And we lose sight of what you're just saying right here is that yeah, you're gonna have a diverse customer base. And if the only thing you're hearing is what you think it should be, your input, your output, whatever that is, like you could be missing an entire market, a segment of your market, right?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

That's right. That's exactly right. Yes. Um, uh your segment of your market or pro a particular product or um, you know, some solution that you haven't thought of. Yeah. And and you have competitors. So if they're if they have diverse groups of people, they have an advantage potentially, right? Gotcha. Gotcha.

Jennifer Loehding:

All right. So you speak often, this is a good question. I want to talk on I'm I am reading some of these today just to case, and I'm gonna be transparently clear here today because my brain is tired. I've been going all day. So I definitely got some notes here, but so if it sounds like I'm kind of reading, I am today. Um you speak often about workplace bias and toxic culture, and and I think this is huge because I I hear a lot of stuff about culture and companies. This is a big thing now. We're talking about this a lot. Um, what's one experience that you feel like maybe personally changed how you viewed leadership? You mentioned early on about being being in this position where you had to, but is there maybe one turning point that you remember or something that you were like, okay, this is something that needs to change in the culture itself?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

I don't think it was one thing, honestly. I think it was a number of things that I saw. And you're, you know, you're in there doing your job, and I was ambitious and I wanted to be successful. And so some of it I was just trying to figure out how to do that. Right. And so, um, but then I as I started, you know, I've been in, I've been doing this for a long time, I've been doing this for decades. I started to look back because I mentor people and recognize that there are patterns and there are ways to, you know, there's strategies that I've had success with that I could share. Um but I don't think it was just one thing.

Jennifer Loehding:

Right.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

It never really is, right? No. But I think, you know, when we start off in our careers, um, or if we're entrepreneurs and we're, you know, starting a new role or a new business and we're looking for funding, all of those things. I think we recognize as women that it could be difficult because we're told that. But I don't think we recognize the frequency of it happening. Like that was a shock to me. You know, I was so excited about getting out of school and you know, starting my career, and and you know, you just hit these barriers on a daily basis. Um and I don't think we were prepared for that. And yeah, um, I also recognize now when I look back how subtle some of these biases are, and you know, in these rooms where somebody's talking over you or they're stealing your idea, and we let them go, but we don't recognize that they are hurting you, they're hurting your credibility. It's you know, those biases are reshaping how people view you, and that can affect your career growth.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah. It's interesting that you say that too, because you're right. And I think I think that, you know, it's funny. I'm having, I feel like all these little com micro conversations are coming up in different segments about just even like generation biases, right? Generational type things, the way things are between like the difference in the culture with baby boomers versus like your millennials and your Gen Z, right? And I saw something the other day, totally different topic, but I was scrolling through TikTok like we do sometimes. And I'm like looking through there and I see this whole, you know, video clip about like how, you know, there's the the boomers are here, Gen X is here, and then you've got the millennials and how Gen X is sort of kind of the bridge between these two here. And I think you're you're touching on something that's really important here because there are these subtle, I think, biases that they've just, this is the way it's been. This is a way it's been, and nobody ever challenged that. And then I think now we're starting to challenge more things. You know what I mean? We're questioning more things, asking more things, and bringing it to the to the light, I think. And so you've touched on something I think really important here when you said these subtle biases, because I think that we get so wrapped up in in this is the way it is. That's and then we don't even recognize it because that's the way it's been. We don't even recognize that maybe that's not something we should be doing, you know. Like maybe we need to change that. Is that even effective any longer? You know, and and and then you've got, you know, the younger generation that views work culture and everything very completely different. So they look at some of this and go, no way, right? Like, no.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

I agree. You're you're absolutely right. And I I think, you know, the ones that are the older generations, we just tolerate it. We tolerated it, right? It was just that's the way it was. And we just figured out how to survive in those systems. And I think what I love to see is these younger generations saying, no, that's just not okay. Yeah, that's not okay for me. Um, that doesn't align with my values or how I view myself or how I view my life going. And so we are seeing shifts, I think, in c more confidence in speaking up. Um, I will say that I think the younger generation they speak up outside of the rooms still, they'll support each other, but it's outside of the rooms.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

We need everybody to address it in the rooms when it's appropriate.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah. I think culture, you know, it's so interesting because I don't know if I shared this with you, but I was in uh Mary Kay for a really, really long time. And, you know, and I I laugh about this because the the whole thing with Mary Kay is about culture, right? It that's why people stay in this in it because of the culture. It's it's I mean, there are people like I did okay, and I was in, you know, leadership, so I did fairly well in the time that I was there. But a lot of people are in there, and I don't even know if they're I mean, yes, a lot of them make money, but a lot of them probably don't too, because it's a business and that's how it rolls, right? Yes. I think a lot of them stay in just because of the culture that that organization has created. And so I have been blessed, and I feel that, you know, I sort of say I lived in a pink bubble for a very long time, that I got to be kind of in this whole uh environment where we really were able to sort of kind of put priorities in place and sort of live that out in our lives every day. And I'm grateful that my kids got to pick up on some of that, you know. And when I exited out of that and started got on my, you know, kind of started rebranding myself. And and now I'm no longer Mary Kay, I'm now Jennifer Loading, and I've got podcasts and all these other things I'm doing now. I realized coming out of that that things are so very different, you know, being in the pink bubble forever, you know, out here in this world and listening to the different, you know, even like my husband, what they talk about at their work and then other people talk about in their culture, you know, and how there's culture is just a big thing. It really is. It can make such a big difference in an organization. And I you recognize those companies where they do very, very well with it. You you know who those companies are. And those companies are, they have principles, but they also have some progressive movements too. They're not, and what I mean by that is they're not getting stuck in this is the way it has always been mentality. It's if it's not working, we need to look at that. It doesn't mean we need to reinvent the entire wheel, but it does mean we should look at this and say, okay, maybe we need to fix something, you know? Right.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

I mean, if you think about Mary Kay, I used to love Mary Kay, the reasons why you probably enjoyed that culture is because you saw people that looked like you at all levels. You felt safe to speak up, you felt valued. And that's what people are looking for in all cultures. And and unfortunately, we don't see those in every culture, right? And so, but but that's why you probably liked Mary Kay. You felt you felt comfortable. So when you feel comfortable, you feel safe to share your ideas, which means you feel like you're being valued and you're being heard and you're being seen. So of course you want to stay there.

Jennifer Loehding:

Right, right. No, and you're right. And I think that is, it's the value people want to be valued and heard, you know, and and if we're not getting that, then we're not. But it's funny, I will tell you this. Um I run an organization, I have a a networking group that I I facilitate it. Uh I don't I hate to say media. It's a success circle because I'm not a big meeting person word. I hate that word because I think it sounds too formal. And it's so funny because a lot of what I do in there, I sort of model after how I ran my events when I was in Mary Kay. A lot we talk about, you know, wins and recognition and praising, and because people, when they, you know, I tell them when they come in, this is an engagement. Like you come in, like we want to engage in this. These people want to be heard, you know, like and I let them come in and they get to share their wins that they've had for you know since the last time we met. And and then we, of course, we talk about goals and all those other things, but it's basically what you're talking here is about this this being seen and heard. And and I jokingly say that uh yes, we need formality, but I don't want to do it at the expense of connection. That's you know what I mean? Like I don't want to lose the art of connecting because when people start to get into processes without connection, then we start losing people, you know, and there's no interest any longer.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

So Yeah, and I think that's that's a great point, and that's the right word. It's connection because there's a lot of companies that, or there are companies that very much focus on performance. And of course, we are in business to make a profit. So performance is a big piece of it. But when it's only about performance and metrics, we lose that connection, we lose the the the team feeling valued, we lose the the team feeling that or individuals feeling that there's a opportunity for them to learn and grow and participate. It's really just about a number. And so, you know, then then and those can turn into somewhat toxic cultures.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah. And I do want to say we don't want to get, we don't want to say we don't goal set because we still, we all still do this, right? You have to. Yeah, we don't want to, we're not, we're not advocating here for like don't ever set a goal, right? Like because we don't want to do that. But I am I'm with you on that. I, you know, I feel like for so many years, and I think, you know, you and I have and we've got parallels in that what we did, we did for a very long time. And you know, even when I was in funny as that was, I was in Mary Kay 22 years and thought I was gonna be in that forever. I didn't think I was going to leave that. And every now and then I I chuckle because I'm like, it's kind of what I grew up learning, you know, like how the books now coach or recruit, you know. Um but I think that, you know, we evolve and we've learned our way through this, you know, what we've needed to take away from that and grow from it. And so um, yeah, and I and I think that's what this whole journey really is, even when you talk about culture. It's just about evolving and giving your people a space to be seen, be heard, grow, and keep continuing to evolve. Yes. And keep the connection. So that's right. Yeah, I love it, Kay. Okay, so when you're working with women, what are you finding? Like what's what is the like the the like maybe the universal block that you're hearing or the thing that you feel like keeps them kind of stuck? I mean, other than these biases, what are you feeling you're hearing from them?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

It's interesting. Um, recently I've heard people, women say, I didn't even realize that was happening to me.

Jennifer Loehding:

Oh wow.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

I thought it was well, they actually they say, I thought it was me. Because I always have to say, recognize it's a system you're working in that wasn't built for you, and you're trying to fit in versus just coming to work as yourself, your authentic self, right? So that there's a struggle if you're trying to fit into something that wasn't built for you at all.

Jennifer Loehding:

Right.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Um, so I think I hear a lot of that. And the other thing is this there is this fear of when they recognize a bias is happening to them or, you know, uh discrimination or barrier or whatever it is, there's this fear of addressing it. Yes. Yeah. They really are they're afraid to speak up. And I've had people say, How do you do that in this room full of men? And they have, you know, there's these strong, powerful, in their view, these strong, powerful men. How do you get the confidence to speak up? So that's a that's something that they, or if somebody's talking over them, they don't feel comfortable to say, hold on a second, I'm gonna finish what I'm saying, and then you know, I'd love to hear what you have to say after, right? And so a lot of the conversations I have is giving them the language, because it's not hard if you think about it, it's not confrontational at all. I it doesn't that's not the mindset of being confrontational. Um, when I give them the words, I get a lot of, oh I think I could do that. I feel comfortable doing that. You know, we've made it such a big deal in our head that we have to confront these people in this hard way, and and that isn't it. It's just being human and saying, I'm gonna get right back to you, but I'm gonna finish what I'm saying.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, yeah. Right.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

And feeling that we deserve that. We deserve to be able, you know, we deserve to say that, right? Um, that because somebody's interrupting us. It's not, it's not our fault they're interrupting us. It's not a bad thing on our part, right? It's it's it's okay to to address it and it doesn't have to be confrontation.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, I love that, Kate. And you know what's so interesting is yesterday I um had a podcast recording that I did with a he's in ministry, and he helps, he says he works primarily with like preachers and you know, pastors in because that he's in ministry, but it helps them basically write their stories, tell their stories, put it in book form. He's he does ghostwriting and all that. But he was telling, talking about one particular story where a, I guess this woman, I don't know if she was a pastor, what she was doing in the ministry, but it was a particular denomination. He didn't mention any of that. And he said that she was getting um, I don't know if he used the word harassment, but it was some kind of sexual something was going on within the organization. And and to your point, one of the things that was is she was coming forward with her story and she was having a hard time coming forward with that because she knew that then they were gonna know and they would know who she was talking about. Right. And he what in his thing was, you know, you needed to tell the story because it would help other people, right? And so I think even in what you're saying here, when we get hung up on this whole inner dialogue, and this spans like across a lot of different things. It's not just about this right here, right? As women, we do this a lot in a lot of ways. Yes, you know, um, but it's also about, you know, I think from a leadership standpoint, when a woman steps into her power, she's actually setting an example for other women to also step into that leadership position. You know what I mean? So it's almost like we owe it, not even if it's just for us to step, but for our children, other women that are stepping into and want to have a voice and be like, hey, I want to be able to do this in a non-confrontational way, but be heard.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Yes. And I think that um I've seen it happen, actually. I've seen where if I'm support if a woman says something in a meeting and I was in a situation where there are other female executives finally in the room, not just me. And if one of them said something and some guy, you know, uh uh one of our peers tried to steal their idea, I would say, well, hold on a second, Maria, Maria just said that. And and so, or let Maria finish what she's saying.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

When I started to do that, they would also do it for me. Oh wow, yeah, that's great. And and I think when you do it and they and you do it and you do it successfully without repercussion, they feel the confidence to to do it as well.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

And you're right. I think it's it's not only about it's a couple of things. It's not only about you know, addressing it for yourself, it's not only about addressing it to for change, it's about addressing it as as and being a role model for the next person to give that confidence to that that other woman who's maybe in that room.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, yeah. It's such a hard thing. I mean, and really that that whole uh I think that self-worth thing, but I really love that you're, you know, what I love about what you're talking about here is really just the addressing without the confrontation, because I do think we internalize so much. We put so much energy around that if I speak up, that's gonna be a bad thing, it's gonna be confrontational, it's gonna be icky, but it doesn't have to be, right? It's like difficult conversations don't have to be hard. We make them so hard, I think, because we like put so much energy into them. You know, it's like right sometimes you just have to be like, hey, you know what? Hold on. That you I bet you have some great ideas. Let me just finish this really quick and get through this, and then you have the floor, you know what I mean? Without it being like, oh my gosh, you stole that way. What are you doing? You know, like that's not you know, I that's confrontational, you know. But I think it's really this, this just this art of communication. And I love that you're giving them the language because I think I will tell you this, even in Mary Kane, we started out, we would have booking scripts funny, totally different. But think about this. We would tell them like to take the mirror and look at themselves while they were talking to see if they were smiling, number one, right? Because we put that's our energy comes through in our face and all of that. Right. But also would just be the difference in them using a script versus not a script. Because I used to say I would be like, okay, take this for example, totally different thing. But if you're trying to book a client, for example, and you get on the phone and you call them and you're like something like, Hi, this is Jennifer, you know, you wouldn't want to book an appointment with me. Right. Nobody's gonna want to book that, right? Like it's like, no way. But if you turned around and you said, you know, hi, this is Jennifer, you know, and you give them your thing and you say, Is there any reason why we couldn't sit down and let me, you know, show you what I got for five minutes and you can tell me a little bit about you know what I mean? Like it's a very different approach. The diet, the words, the words matter. You know what I mean?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

That's a great analogy. That's a great analogy. Like the sales, because we do teach sales people, like use this script, obviously make it your own, but the the you know, the meat of it is the same. Right. And that's exactly what we have to teach women. Um, because I think we we consider addressing, we equate addressing something to confrontation.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yes, yeah, it's probably because we were told to be quiet. Yes, probably we were told to be seen and not heard, you know what I mean? That's right. Don't be you can only be seen, don't be heard, you know. That's right. Like every time we think we're gonna say something, we're like, that's not good, you know. And and truth, truth be told, you know, again, as we become, you know, like because I'm probably like you, or like I do speak up and I try to do everything diplomatically and fair and be kind. And if I don't like something, I'm just like, hey, I don't like this, you know, like I'm not trying to be rude, whatever, but I just don't like this particular thing. But right, you know, and I think most people, if you address that right, can handle that. But sometimes you get people that they can, and then you become kind of that confront they in their mind you are confrontational. And I always say no, speaking up doesn't equal that if you handle it appropriately, you know.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

So I think I think I think you're right that that uh you know there's this fear of of being considered confrontational. Um, but there's ways to do it. Yeah, I always say take the emotion out of it.

Jennifer Loehding:

Absolutely.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Yeah, and you can be kind, and most people, I agree, most people when you address it, they'll respond in the right manner, they'll they'll respond positively. Not all. And when the ones that don't, it doesn't matter how they react. What matters is you said what you need to say, you set your boundary. Yeah, that's all that matters. That's their decision on how they're gonna react. But usually, even the ones that don't react well, they're gonna pause the next time they do it with you because they know you're gonna say something to you.

Jennifer Loehding:

You're gonna address it. Yeah, yeah. They know you're gonna address it.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Yeah.

Jennifer Loehding:

I know I think the the older you get, the wiser you get on those, the better you get with that. And it's it really is an every evolving thing. And I think it is evolving. Leadership is one of those things that you just you can't really teach. I mean, you can tell them things, you know, principles of leadership and stuff, but I think really leaders are kind of grown, they're molded, they're they're developed over time. And it's because of these experiences that you were talking about in the beginning. It's going through these hard things and having to learn to evolve in that process and and decide, you know, are you gonna let that define who you are and be stopped? Or are you gonna use that as a catalyst to create change for yourself and whatever you need to do forward? And so um, I love all this that that you're bringing forward because it's important.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

And we don't get it, even my years of experience. There's times where someone will say something to a meeting and I'm like, ooh, I'm not sure how to address this, right? And so exactly I, you know, we don't always get it right in the meeting at the moment. There's plenty of times, even for me, I'll leave and go, oh, I should have said this. But you can you can always go back and say it after. Go absolutely. If you don't handle it well in the meeting the first time, or you're or you're fearful in the meeting and you don't feel like you addressed it correctly, go address it after. You still have the opportunity to address it after, but you should address it.

Jennifer Loehding:

It's so good that you said this too, because this is important because I think that is how you that defines a leader, right there. What you're talking about. It was so funny the other day. I it wasn't funny then, I can laugh about it now, but I had a disagreement with uh somebody that was working with me the other day. And I've I allow, I say this, and I can openly say this because I'm okay with it because I I I corrected. But um, I got I allowed myself to get just mad about it, like angry, and then I snapped and I felt bad. I'm not gonna get maybe the things should have been said, maybe they shouldn't have been said, I don't know. But I felt bad because I allowed myself to get heated and upset over the situation. And so when I got off, got off the call, I in the end of the call, I said something like, I need to go, I got stuff, I I need to get off this call because I need to go do what I need to do because I knew I was mad. So I hung up and then I I I text her back because I was still too heated to call. So I just text back and I said, I'm sorry I snapped. Because I knew that in that moment that I handled something, you know, poorly, things needed to be said. Did they need to be said that way? Maybe not. Did they need to be all said? Probably not. But I think what you're saying here is that self-correcting, you know, being able to go back. And if you don't say it, fix do it right, you can always go back and say, I needed to say this and I didn't, or I'm sorry that I said this, or I should have handled this differently. That is part of that whole leadership thing.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

We are human, we're not always gonna get it right. No, and that's okay.

Jennifer Loehding:

Never, right? We're always evolving, so I love it. So tell me a little bit about your book, kind of what the inspiration behind that, because obviously, this is the work you're doing. This is talking about what we're talking about right here. You know, what inspired you to get this out? And tell me a little bit about what's in this our audience kind of knows what what to anticipate.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Sure. The book is called uh the title of the book is Not Made for You, how Women in Tech Can Challenge Bias, Claim Their Space, and Thrive in a System Made for Men. And the the reason that I wrote the book was because I wanted to, I don't want to leave my profession without helping other women. And I know, as we talked about, I noticed these patterns. I started to test different strategies. Um, some of them I was doing just automatically because I was ambitious and I was trying to get through. But as I got older and had more experience, I was testing different strategies to see if they worked. And they were working. And I mentored women, as I said, and I noticed that they felt this relief when I told them here's a way to address it. And so I wrote the book to give examples of how it can show up at work because I said it's it it can be subtle. So there's stories, there's my stories, there's other colleagues' stories, and there's some famous ones that can show how it will show up for you at work, and then I give them the language to how to address it in all these situations, and then also give them strategies to have a successful career. Um, and so I, you know, I felt it was really important to help women get through these barriers because there is a way to do it. I have had a successful career. Not that it wasn't challenging at times, but I also have had a joyful career.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, I love this. I know, and I think it's great. I I like that it's it's practical. It seems it seems like there's a practical guide. This is what you're gonna use to do it. And so, and I think stories are great. We know that stories work, they they help people remember things, and um people can relate to that when they hear that. So it sounds like a it's a practical a practical tool.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Um and I and I think that um the other thing there's it's for it's for women, certainly, and and marginalized groups. So any marginalized group would would benefit from that. But I also think for men, it's great for them to read it because they really need to understand that our experience at work is very different than theirs. And I think this book will illuminate that for them.

Jennifer Loehding:

And I love that I because I'm as you're saying that, I'm sitting here thinking, because a leader of an organization, as a male, if he wanted his organization to thrive, would be saying, I need to understand this, right? I need to come with to this with curiosity and I need to understand what it is like for these females in my organization.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Yes. And I've had really positive feedback from men already on the book.

Jennifer Loehding:

That's awesome. Yeah. Very good. I'm excited. Well, I need to check it out. I need to read it and I need to check it out, and hopefully I can inspire some other leaders to check to that. I because again, I, you know, I think so much of what our problems, and and I won't just even outside, not so much, not even just in the workforce, but in life in general, because we have all these biases and we come to the table without a curious mind. We pretend to think we know what it's like to walk in your shoes, you know. And I will say, as a trained, you know, in the coaching space, I always, you know, when I'm working even with my clients, I always say, I am not going to pretend I know what you're going through or how you feel. Because there's nothing more annoying to me, okay. If you were on the other end and you were saying to me, I know how you feel. No, you don't. Yes, you know, but the thing is, there are certain things as women we can say that we've gone through this and you may be experiencing this too. And if you do, I might be able to help you go through that. But I think that is really how we have to come together in in everything, is from a mind of we don't really know what somebody's going through, and how can we learn that? And maybe we can learn to work together so that we all win in this, you know, whatever it is we're doing together, whether it's life, work, whatever, you know?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Yes. I we have to um recognize that we all have bias, not just, you know. Oh yeah. Right. This isn't just about men or we all have bias and we need to recognize that so that we are aware when we're looking through that lens of bias. Yeah.

Jennifer Loehding:

I love that you said that because yeah, it is true. And even and it's so funny because I I try so hard, like when I'm dealing with situations, because we do, we all have biases, and we'll be like, and I'll be like, stop that. You're generalizing, do not do that. Stop doing that, stop generalizing, do not do that. You know, but we all do it, and so we do. We all do it. Yeah, the big thing here, I think, really is just, you know, to try to be mindful. And um, it's so funny because I've had I feel like all of the episodes that I've had on recently, even leading up to yours, has been about curiosity and self-image. It we've had a lot of talk about our being. I, you know, like I mentioned yesterday in the episode that a few weeks ago I had a Cal State professor on who in psychology, and his big thing was talking about our being versus our doing, that we spend a lot of time doing success, getting accolades, right? Thinking these are the things, but it's really the being that we need to be working on, which is again, and he equated it to vertical versus horizontal growth, like how we go about our growth and um our because our being goes with us everywhere we go, right? And that's how we show up into the world, which is playing out into everything we are talking about right here today. And then I followed that up the next week. I had another guy on that was in the education arena, and he came up with this whole thing about mind shifting. And his big thing was what we're talking about with curiosity, leading with that. And when we lead with that, it allows us to have better conflict resolution skills, allows us to solve problems better because we're eradicating some of these biases. We're we're coming to a point from a place of tell me what you're going through, or tell me, I may not agree with everything that you're saying or doing, but tell me what your experience is, you know, or what you're you're currently going through. And so I feel like all these episodes have sort of kind of we like just sort of like been leading, like, you know, like spinning onto each other. And then yesterday I had the guy in ministry and we were talking again about a lot of the same things, these kind of like what you're talking about, some of these stories coming up and being afraid to bring them forward because it makes us vulnerable, you know, and and how we need to be able to do that to really help other people and and lead, which is leadership, you know. So I love it.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

It's all good stuff, good stuff. I love that there's multiple conversations around this. This is what we need. More people talking about it.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, that's what this show is. That's what I tell people. You know, like I was trying to um, I had somebody the other day write in. It was it was funny, somebody was trying to sell me on SEO, and they were like, Your episodes, you talk about a lot of different things. And I'm like, tell me you don't know what this podcast is about without tell me you don't know what this podcast is about, right? It's about thriving. It's about what all of these things that we're talking about are really inner, they're interlaced. It doesn't matter whether you're a CEO, you're in the corporate, you're in your own business, culture exists everywhere in every part of our lives. We are lives. We're talking about biases, all these things you're talking about, boundaries. This all has to do with our image of ourself, right? So yes, these things all overlap, and the only way we truly thrive is when we start having these conversations and recognizing and having self-awareness around this in our own lives, you know? That's right. Exactly. It's good stuff. I love it. Well, you're doing awesome stuff, Kay. I I love it. So anything, any I I would love to know any new pro any other projects coming up in the works. If I know you just launched your book, but is there any like follow-up coming up to this that you're thinking about or anything else you're working on?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

You know, right now I did just launch my book. Um and so it is my next phase is really just what we're doing is getting in front of larger groups of people, women, marginalized groups to share with them my experience and give them the tools to help them thrive in their career. So that is those are the things I'm looking at is you know, speaking opportunities. Um, and again, just to get on a larger platform to deliver the message, have the conversation.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, well, you know, doing the right things. Podcast seems to be the medium right now where it's like I was I saw something the other day, they were talking about how it's a small segment, but it's pretty powerful, you know, because when you get on podcasts, you've got people that have audiences that are following their cap those audiences are captivated and they're listening to everything, you know, that's going through there in the medium. And that's a lot of why I vet the people that come on here. And it's not because so much of having to necessarily agree with everything, but more about I want to um it's about who the the human spirit, really who the person is that's coming on the show and what they represent for themselves. And I love what you're doing because I I think that um one, I can tell you're passionate about it, which I I think is incredible. Um, but also you're a a a walking billboard basically for for this because you've walked it, you know, you've gone through it and had the experience. Yeah, you've come out to say, hey, here's what I've here's how it's gone for me, and um, and you in in a positive way. That's what I love, is that you're really honing in on there's gonna be challenges, but you can do this. You've got this. You just need to learn the tricks of how to get through it.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

That is that is the that is the message right there. Yeah, that there are challenges, but there's strategies to be successful in these environments.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, I love it. I love it. So if anybody wants to pick up this book, which I'm sure somebody listening to this today is gonna be like, oh my gosh, this is awesome. These girls are like pro, like, and and listen, we don't want to say this is just about women because we want men to be confident and bold and be able to speak their mind and feel safe and seen and heard too. This is not just about women. We all should be able to be in that space, right, where we feel seen, heard, and validated. Period.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Agreed. I agree.

Jennifer Loehding:

Yeah, but yeah, I'm sure somebody listening to this today is gonna want to pick this book up. And I hope that, you know, some men that are listening to this too go in and say, you know what? Yeah, we need this. We need to maybe read this and understand it so that we can work with both sides, you know. And um, so where do we tell them to go find this thing?

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Um, Amazon.com. Um, again, the name of it is not made for you. Um, and Amazon and you know, um uh Goodreads and Barnes and Noble. And you can also go to my website, which is K Williams, and that's K-A-E Williams.com, and there's links to uh purchase the book there as well.

Jennifer Loehding:

Very good, very good. Well, very cool. I'm gonna go check it out so I want to read it. I've oh it's funny. I have books like all over my I have them in here. They're like sure. Yeah, I love it. Well, and I just cool thing, I just got an email yesterday. Apparently, there's this site out there now that will go in and give you it's like an AI site that will give you like summaries of books, and it's all, I mean, leadership, everything. I'm so excited about it because now you can go in and actually go in there and just get like this like kind of a synopsis of the whole thing. Yeah, and go through there. So if you need books, but I am always checking out books. I've got them all over the place, and I love reading everybody's books and um recommending them. And so I'm gonna definitely check out yours and um hopefully get it out to the words so we can get some other people reading on it.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

So wonderful.

Jennifer Loehding:

Okay, this has been great. I'm so excited for you. Thank you for coming on here today and and chatting with us. It's been a fun conversation. I never know where these are gonna go, um, but this has certainly been a fun one today, and um, I definitely want to you know wish you continued success at what you're doing.

Kae Kronthaler Williams:

Thank you, Jennifer. I've enjoyed the conversation as well, and I I really appreciate you having me on your show. Thank you.

Jennifer Loehding:

Awesome. And of course, I appreciate you. Love you, love you. Go check case, check out her work, keep up with her with her. And of course, if you like the episode, what do we do too? Hit all those buttons, comment, comment, share, so keep sharing all this fabulous content. And as I say, in order to live in start, and every start is with decision. You guys care, care, stay, safe, kind of one another. We will see you next time.

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Jennifer Loehding

Host
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Kae Kronthaler Williams

Guest